The Bush administration continues to ostracise GLBT people and laws are being passed in states all over the US that discriminate against gays/lesbians or atleast refuse them certain rights that their heterosexual counterparts have.
Whats the problem with (unrelated) consenting adults making their own minds up as to who they love and want to be with and why do so many straight people have a problem with it?
I am well aware of the christian view on this…and frankly…i don’t buy it.
Christians always tell me that Jesus loves me…well if Jesus loves me anyway and i’m a lesbian..then where is the problem?
Love between one adult and another is not a bad thing (unless they’re also family!)
Hikingpreacher…if you think its ok for a man or woman to sleep with his mother/sister/father/brother, thats your thing!
And with your comments…you appear to be confirming for me is that the line between church and state is become ever blurred…going right against your own constitution…The Bible is not supposed to have bearing on the laws in the USA…God Bless America!
Hikingpreacher…Ofcourse i read your answer…the thing that worries me most about folks like you is that you seem to rely on scriptures to tell you what to think and how to feel…i however do not base my feelings on scripture…so in my world…its ok to think that incest is a bad thing while homosexuality is not!
With your belief system i just dont think you’re getting all you can from this beautiful life we have all been gifted with.
Whatever happened to love thy neighbour, and judge not lest ye be judged thyself?
I am not a Christian…but i am also not ignorant to Christian beliefs…i even lived with a priest for a time and was not condemned by them.
A nod to Wolf…nice words my furry friend 
Hikingpreacher….do you condemn homosexuality because you wouldn’t want to sleep with another man..or because the bible tells you you shouldnt sleep with another man?
I think that incest is a bad thing in so far as i would never involve myself in an incestuous relationship…as is my CHOICE…but i do believe that CONSENTING ADULTS making their own decisions about such matters…is their business…as is the case with Gays/Lesbians.
We are consenting adults making our own choices…we do not need to be nannied by millenia old books and the people that continue to follow these ancient and outdated writings….times have changed.
And by the way…i do agree with you that child molestation and murder are acts that people should not engage in. But(returning to one of my original points)i believe that the laws of a ‘free’ and diverse country such as the USA should be based on a common sense and NOT on ancient scriptures.
Hikingpreacher…the reason i made such a point of excluding related adults from my arguments
was because people like to be picky and finickity (obviously!!)..if i had said ‘what’s the problem with
people making their own minds up as to who they love” you probably would have jumped
right on the old ‘so incest is ok then as long as they love eachother?’ card…i’ve been there before!
So i specified- unrelated consenting adults.
Homosexuality in the USA is the issue i’m raising here, not incest, pedophilia or murder.
But its interesting what you said about the Nazi’s and the atrocities they carried out, which were NOT illegal
at the time they were committed, because the laws did not exist to make them criminal acts.
I say this because the discrimination against gay/lesbian people that currently exists within the U.S would be illegal in the UK
and some other countries. It would go against our legal human rights…our right to choose.
So what, we are godless countries?
No, we are countries that have lawmakers that recognise the diversity of human life and experience.
We know that not everyone conforms to same ideals and we tend to make our laws based on a common sense, using a majority vote.
We have the presence of mind to understand that homosexuality is not a threat to society,
and does not need to be controlled by ‘big brother’.
Not everyone is a Christian, not everyone wants to live by Christian ‘rules’.
Just ask the millions of adulterers in the U.S, by biblical law they should all be killed..shouldn’t they?
But as you said…”Its an all or nothing proposition. Cut and paste theology doesn’t cut it with God”
You’re certainly not getting the ‘all’ are you?
So i reitterate, the church and state should be seperate.
American Law cannot and should not be based on christian biblical law.
I guess GLBT americans are kind of lucky in a way, they don’t go to prison (anymore) for being who the are,
even the W.A.S.P american lawmakers seem to have realised how ridiculous it would be to imprison people for their sexuality.
Thank goodness! …but the laws still have some way to go before they put people on a level pegging.
Lets hope it happens sooner rather than later.
because people are scared of what they don’t know
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I could care less what people do in the privacy of their own home. But I personally get sick of having it thrown in my dam face everytime I turn on the TV. Maybe it is because this country was founded upon Christianity? Read the Bible, it will answer your question. And as far as marriage…..let them have a token ceremony! They are going to hell anyway. Have a good day!
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this is GOD`s way of testing us he wants to see how well we handle issues like this i don`t hate gays i think people need leave well enough alone and let them have the same rights we do i hope one day they do get the rights we have
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Because many Americans have this false notion that America was founded on Christian principles. If they took the time to read the writings of the founding fathers, they’d see how mistaken they are. We are not nor have we ever been a Christian nation.
People are ignorant and hate filled and they need something to justify that. Just like people used the Bible to deny women, people of color and the mentally ill certain rights, they’re trying to use it to deny GLBTs certain rights. Some people would prefer to remain blissfully unaware while hiding behind a book. If they get to know GLBTs and see they’re just like everyone else, then what? It’s easier to hate them. I love it when people’s attitude towards me changes because I’m bi, shows what type of people they are in the first place.
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Ahh consistency, thou art a jewel. You condemn same-family lovers, and yet don’t want people to condemn same-sex lovers. The fact is, you are admitting that a line has to be drawn somehwere about what is acceptable and is not acceptable in romantic relationships. And believe it or not, the concept of same-family relationships being condemned finds its root in the same Scriptures as same-sex relationships. Yahushua (Jesus) is not quoted condemning either specifically. Yet both actions are condemned explicitly in the Torah (Law of Moses). but notice what Yahushua states concerning the Torah: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah (Law) or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For assuredly I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass away from the Torah (Law) till all is fulfilled. Whoever there breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17-19). So even though Yahushua is not recorded as specifically, by His own lips, as condemning homosexuality or incest, by this statement here, he upholds the condemnation of both homosexuality and incest as presented in the Torah.
I DIDN’T say it’s OK to sleep with your relatives. Obviously, you didn’t read my response, otherwise, you wouldn’t have made that statement. What I was pointing out is that YOU are being inconsistent. You are quick to agree with the Scriptures that inter-family relationships are wrong, but are unwilling to agree with the Scriptures that homosexuality is wrong. There are ONLY two basis for condemning incest: the Scriptures and the results of procreation in an incestual relationship. The same basis applies to homosexuality. In both cases, the Scriptures condemn the actions, and in both cases they are procreational disasters. Again, I would enjoin you to read what I have written. I DID NOT say incest was OK. But if you are going to be consistent, if you are going to say homosexuality is right, then you are going to have to say incest is right. If you are going to say incest is wrong, then you are going to have to say homosexuality is wrong. Anything else is hypocrisy. You are either going to have to take the log of homosexuality out of your own eye, before you can condemn the log of incest in another person’s eye, or else accept both as OK. I DO NOT accept either as OK.
Britchick, there again, you are being inconsistent. You tell me to love your homosexuality, and not judge you, yet you are willing to judge and condemn people in incestuous relationships. My point is this, you are telling me NOT to do to homosexuals precisely what you ARE doing to the incestuous. That’s hypocrisy. If we accept your premise that the only authority for what is right and wrong is our own feelings on a subject, then no person can condemn anybody else for doing anything. Nothing is wrong. I know you and I both would agree that murder and child molestation is wrong. But if we based that wrongness upon what we personally feel, then what makes our opinion better than the person that thinks these things are right? We have to accept a higher standard of authority for what is right and wrong. Otherwise, anarchy results, and man’s opinions are like their posteriors…everyone has one!
To mishmash: the fact that a homosexual couple CAN’T have a child, without by some means appropriating an egg or sperm from somoeone of the opposite sex, or adopting a child produced by heterosexual activity, proves it is a procreational disaster.
Britchick: Well, I see you back-pedaled a little bit, but, if nothing else, you are being more consistent. You initially stated, “Whats the problem with (unrelated) consenting adults making their own minds up as to who they love …” And then, “Love between one adult and another is not a bad thing (unless they’re also family!)”. And again, “…so in my world…its ok to think that incest is a bad thing while homosexuality is not!” But now you say, “I think that incest is a bad thing in so far as i would never involve myself in an incestuous relationship…as is my CHOICE…but i do believe that CONSENTING ADULTS making their own decisions about such matters…is their business.” Either something is inherently bad, or it isn’t. If all of good and evil is determined by how each individual decides what is good or evil for themselves, then there is truly NO good or evil. Nothing is wrong. Anything goes. The very fact that society demands a sense of “oughtness” to some things, and “ought not-ness” to others, implies that there is a higher level of authority to which men appeal. Why were the Nazis wrong? Did they violate national law when they killed the Jews? No. Mational law of Germany made it legal. Did they violate international law when they killed the Jews? No. There was no international law at that time. Why did America and other nations feel such an outrage against Nazi Germany? There was the recognition that they violated principles which came from a higher source than man. If man is the highest source of authority in what is right and what is wrong, no man has the right to condemn anybody for anything they do. Pounding a baby in the skull with a hammer would be no more wrong than squashing a bug. This is the ultimate flaw to Atheism and Permissiveism. When there is no higher authority for right or wrong than man himself, then there is no true reason to stop a person for doing whatever their little heart desires. If not, why not, and by what authority does one man have the right to tell another man what he/she can or cannot do? But when we recognize the authority of Yahweh God through His Scriptures, we concede that there is a reason for limiting the actions of man. Once we have done that, we cannot just pick and choose which of His laws are pleasing to us. It’s an all-or-nothing proposition. Cut-and-paste theology doesn’t cut it with God.
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Would you rather be gay/lesbian in Saudi Arabia? How about China? North Korea?
The USA is a lot more open-minded than most countries. People take that for granted.
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Prejudice comes from ignorance and misinformation. And many people conveniently hide behind the Bible as an excuse to fling their prejudice on others. This is not the Christian attitude Jesus preached at all. America is anti-gay/lesbian (and also racist, sexist, etc.) because most people are so cowardly they would rather go with the flow and not stand up and disagree with the majority (or what they perceive as the majority) opinion. But it is true that other countries have it much worse and things were worse here 20, 40, 60 years ago.
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*Shrugging my furry shoulders* Humans fear the unfamiliar…
Fear triggers a fight or flight instict and in this case that fear triggered fight instinct has led to irrational blindness of actual reality.
Nowhere is this blindness seen in greater concentration than in the groups that sadly are filled with a lot of people who would prefer to believe in text, written during the dark ages, when the world was thought of as flat; than to think for themselves and use their hearts and minds to decide what is right and wrong.
They are just lazy I guess or sadly far far from in touch with the true path…
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Actually I think lesbians are quite attractive. It’s just the gay guys that I don’t really like.
Why is it that people let something like a bible tell them whether they can **** the same gender? It seems a little simple minded to me. If you ask me all this religion is turning people into a bunch of a**holes that can’t make decisions for themselves. They need a book to tell them who they can have sex with, and I think that is pathetic. I personally don’t think religion has any need to be mentioned in any of these answers as it has nothing to do with whether people should be homo or not. I am not gay but da** if I ever let a ******* book tell me whether I can be that way or not, and quite frankly I don’t give a sh** if god is mad at me, if he wants to send me to hel* then go for it, tough guy. See if it really makes a difference in my life. Do you know what’s wrong with the world today? People live their lives by a book and it is pathetic!!!!!! You cannot truly tell me you make your own decisions, because god tells you what to do.
Yet they will keep going on and on about god and america. Oh and why is god obviously on America’s side? Shouldn’t he be on everyone’s side? Isn’t he supposed to love everyone? Not just Americans.
And how exactly do you compare incest to homosexuality? Incest is having sex with your brother/sister/mother/father/cousin, and being gay has nothing to do with this.
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Oh how I fear for the souls of those across the seas and therefore too far removed from God’s message!
God, who is obviously on America’s side, has, through his scribes & prophets, called these things sins. How then could any true believer keep from villifying and condemning such misdeeds?
Along with this, it’s obvious we God-fearing Americans must point out the evil intent of people calling themselves scientists & intellectuals who would poison our youth with wicked notions like evolution, special relativity, quantum field thory, cosmology and such – all of which are at odds with the scriptures!
For example, to date I’ve not seen one concrete piece of evidence that contradicts Joshua on the biblical assertion that the sun orbits around the earth, and not the other way around as these so-called astronomers would have us believe.
No, by golly, if this earth is to survive another 6,000 years, we better stick to the letter of the Word! (Oh and don’t give me that carbon-dating crap, OK?)
I believe in time the resistance of those God-challenged bastions of analytical thinking, for example Europe, will dissolve before the mighty onslaught of the right-eous! Hallelujah! (By the way, since you’re from the UK, can I interest you in buying stock in the Brooklyn Bridge?)
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How does a homosexual couple having a child equal a procreational disaster? That statement is absurd!
hikingpreacherman
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america is a large country with many people and many diffrent ways of thinking. there is more geographical, cultural, and religious deversification than in probably any other place in the world . sometimes this is good, it makes for iteresting exchange of ideas , sometimes it is bad.. we are constantly at eachothers throwths[sp]. yes many people here are homophobic for diffrent reasons and many people are quite accepting of just about anything
i am a christian and have often struggled with the coflicting ideas in the BIBLE. i’m sure God loves all his children, but there are certainly teachings in THE BOOK that forbid homosextuality….. the only thing i can come up with that validates both issues is that one may be a homosextual but may not act upon it…..??????? we all have our crosses to bear futhermore whether homo or heterosextual i think the teachings of the BIBLE whould preffer all of us to use our bodies as temples and not “amusment parks”
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